What should "we" do about the uprising in Egypt?
Some suggest keeping relatively silent and letting the events in Egypt be controlled by Egyptians. Others argue that the U.S. government should effectively declare its support of the overthrow of the current Mubarak regime. Many suggest something of a middling position, in which the U.S. privately coerces Mubarak to leave peacefully while publicly saying relatively little beyond support for abstract democratic values.
Absent in much of the discussion seems to be what sort of leverage the U.S. actually has over the situation. There seems to be little leverage over the majority of Egyptian citizens. Much of the protest directly stems from the past three decades of U.S. Egyptian policy, which effectively amounted to subsidizing Egyptian security forces. These security forces agreed to allow access of the U.S. military, aid U.S. intelligence activities in the region, and recently help interrogate and sometimes torture Al Qaeda suspects. In return, the U.S. effectively turned a blind eye to Egyptian security forces being used to oppress domestic opposition groups. This did not go unnoticed in Egypt and beyond, and U.S. support of another authoritarian regime became evidence of imperialism. This support, however, also gives the U.S. a degree of leverage over the Egyptian military.
How should the U.S. use this leverage? One idea might be to privately tell the top military officials that they must pave the way for a legitimate national unity government and or new constitutional convention, or risk losing aid. While publicly saying that the U.S. looks forward to cooperating with the will of the Egyptian people as represented through a free and fair electoral process. It might be made clear that the U.S. does not seek to guide this process in any way.
What do you think?
Monday, January 31, 2011
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riots in Egypt?! when did this start? i've been too busy busting my hump for the man (corporation) and watching Jersey Shore on my flat screen-3D TV, Ipad, and Iphone (wages haven't increased in 30+ years, but i'm happy - cause i've got my imported electronics!!) to take notice.
ReplyDeletebut i'll tell you what. we should use that power with the military to progress demoocracy. AND isn't this already happening? the military is protecting the nations treasures so that future American tourists, i mean Egyptains, can enjoy them. the military has not struck out at the citizens. they sit by and allow the protest to go on, even after the curfew. and as for the citizens of Egypt...good for them! they said enough is enough, got off their lazy butts, and started a revolution.
i got news for you, 'We the people' are no longer the leaders of the free world, cause no one wants to sacrafice time out of their busy day to give a shit.
Gregg
Sorry it took me so long to respond, I was eating a donut while watching MMA. Did you say that there is treasure in Egypt? Wow, I thought they just had the Suez Canal.
ReplyDeleteI don't have much to say other than I support the people of Egypt and want to see them get the democracy we all deserve. I also want to share a link to a site that hosts a bunch of news channels http://www.livestation.com/ For real coverage you need to look outside the US.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your thoughts, and I wholeheartedly agree. Also, that link is awesome. I hope more people find it. I don't have the BBC or Al Jazeera on my cable plan, so that link is especially helpful.
ReplyDeletethanks again.
The US should refrain from interfering in Egypt and elsewhere. I still don't get from where they got this idea of being the police of the world and deciding what is good for other societies.
ReplyDeleteIf the US is afraid of religious fundamentalists taking power, then there is something to do about it: but at home with the raise of the Tea Party, and not abroad with people who are struggling for freedom.
It's a goo time for the US to recognize its role as a decaying power and stop interfering in the issues of other states. Certainly you don't want the rest of the world deciding what is good for you, right?
You make some great points. I agree up to a point, especially about stop trying to be the world's police. However, I wonder if the u.s. could actually help the people of Egypt by pressuring the military to be more democratic and less autocratic or kleptocratic. I realize the risk of interfering, but at the same time, what if the u.s. could be a "positive influence," instead of a self-interested bully? Just a thought.
ReplyDeleteMy answer is "Right to Self-determination". How different would be the world today if a hypothetical major world power had interfered with the French Revolution, either in favor of one side or the other.
ReplyDeleteJust let them do what they think is right for them. The images we have seen show that they have more courage and understanding than any outsider can possibly have.
I think I agree. I would just feel really bad if the US stood by and watched as the military ousted Mubarak but simply installed their own puppet and continued to deny Egyptians their rights.
ReplyDeleteGrant-
ReplyDeleteI agree. I think since it’s a current issue of our involvement, something ought to be done. Of course one can understand the frustration of US involvement into foreign issues, to some degree perhaps we should "mind our own business" on certain world issues...it seems like once you get to the heart of the problem, the US is involved in foreign issues only for the sake of self interest (be it oil, political sway and whatnot). Involvement by the US could also just be a way to keep a "watchful" eye in order to express inadvertent authority, rather than the authenticating our involvement by way of resource or physical power (has anyone read Michel Foucault's, "Panopticism," Discipline and Punish?...that brings this to mind).But perhaps for the sake of the idealist, it is possible to do some good somewhere. Especially since with Egypt we are already involved with militaristic sway. If we had no involvement, perhaps more thought would have to put into the matter: whether to get involved or not, good idea or not. But being that we ARE there and present, one can't help but to feel it necessary to do something (coming from Architecture, I couldn't tell you what that something would be but discretely persuading Mubarak out and giving any necessary further aid seems to be a viable option).
-Krystal
I like Krystal's view. And taking that into account, if there is any action it should be so that there won't be another one needed in the future. The problem is that often times when there is an intervention, there is another to "fix" the mistakes of the initial one (look at Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Central America, Chile, Vietnam, Korea, etc,...)
ReplyDeleteI think Krystal and Julian are on to something deep here. Although I agree with Krystal's reference to Foucault that the U.S. should avoid acting as the global panopticon, yet standing by while armored trucks run over protesters seems wrong.
ReplyDeleteThus, if we concede that "we" are already materially present in Egypt, what sort of values should guide our actions? (especially taking into account the potential consequences of our actions.) As Julian rightly points out, the best actions would seem to be ones that allow for the most Egyptian self-determination. However, this presents the paradox you both point out: to what degree is it self-determination if it is enabled by an external actor? Abstractly, at stake is the legitimacy of the Egyptian government. Yet materially, peoples' lives are at stake.
This brings us to Julian's point that many, if not most US interventions, seem to end in failure. However, some seem less disasterous than others. There seems to be no blueprint for successful intervention, but I agree with Julian that the lighter the touch the better. Egyptians are more than capable of deciding their own fate, and I think we should only help to make sure that the military and police allows that to occur.
I think they have already started to contact the military about the post-Mubarak phase.
ReplyDeleteYasser, thanks for the update. I would love to be a fly on the wall for those talks.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I agree with a lot of the principles discussed here such as "right of self-determination" and the US should not be the global police officer, the situation in Egypt feels extremely tenuous and you couldn't fault US officials for feeling it's capricious - until day four. I think materially speaking the US, specifically the Obama Administration, finds itself between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand it wants to support democracy, and maybe even support the demonstrators outright. On the other hand, there are other dictators in the region who are US allies, which makes a US response to the situation a potential lightning bolt at a time when I don't think any one person knows what is going on (and the State Dept. is notoriously understaffed). I think that US officials would consult with the Egyptian military and Mubarak's people to ensure some stability. I think everyone understands the military's special role in Egyptian society, and I doubt the US needs to threaten to pull any aid for the military to understand the existential threat to its country. What worries me is that the Egyptian people do not really feel that US is behind them. The demands are simple enough and why can't the US make tear gas for a democratic Egypt? Ultimately, there will need to be sustained pressure from somewhere to make sure that in a few months there is a democratic government and Egyptian bureaucrats are very stubborn and manipulative, so the US will need to use its leverage and get behind this popular movement to make sure it all works out. Yes Egyptians know what they want but the power is distributed asymmetrically. And yet the reform movement needs a figure head with specific demands. I think a re-written constitution would be the first thing after Mubarak leaves. This a long poker game and I think both sides have about the same chip count.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comments Rhamey. I agree with much of what you said, but I think you raise an important point that I might quibble with. You said, "I doubt the US needs to threaten to pull any aid for the military to understand the existential threat to its country." I'm also sure they understand the threat to the country, the question is what do they do about it? While a brutal crackdown may be out of the question, controlling the next government may not be. Thus, because I also worry that the Egyptian people do not really feel that US is behind them, I think the US needs to show that it will no longer support a security apparatus that actively suppresses democracy. Keep in mind that the man Mubarak chose to be his new VP was the CIA's point man in Egypt for extraordinary renditions.
ReplyDeleteSo although today Obama effectively said that the US will no longer support Mubarak, the question is who will they support and to what end? The obvious answer is the Egyptian people, but the less obvious answer is how they should be supported. I guess I'm suggesting first we act like hypocrits and tell the Egyptian security forces that they will no longer be subsidized in suppressing democracy.
Yes, you are right! The US should just mind it's own business. Guess what? If we had done that in the past, most of Europe would be speaking german. Does nobody remember what the US has done for the good of the world? I guess since the US is on the forefront of cutting edge of medicine and continues to make breakthroughs, we ougt to just mind our own business.
ReplyDeleteThe TeaParty, like it or not, is essentially the US version of Egypt's protests. To deem one worthy of approval and calling the other "religious fundamentalists" is quite narrow minded and shows a lack of knowledge of the Tea Party's actual purpose.
I respect your knowledge and opinion on Egypt, but perhaps before speaking of things American, one ought to do one's homework and not just trust the national news media to provide all of your information, especially knowing that Egypt is not being sufficiently covered.
As for the antiquities and slamming on Americans, there are some of us that are interested in all things historical and are concerned about their preservation. Your self-righteous rantings do not become you. :)
Wow, I'm not sure if Anonymous actually read the post, but I'm sure glad he or she decided to comment. (Also, not sure if I mentioned the Tea Party either, but that's beside the point.)
ReplyDeleteAs for Europe, would they be speaking German or Russian? And pointing out the relative success of the US in WWII in defeating the Axis and the subsequent Marshall Plan does not absolve the US of mistakes in other places. The point is to learn from mistakes and not make them again.
As for doing my homework, I am simply watching first hand footage of demonstrations on various networks, web-sites, and facebook pages. I am also getting twitter feeds from people on the ground in Egypt. And the link I embedded in my post contains unedited video from Egypt. I am also reading and watching the official statements given by the US and Egyptian administrations. So I am not simply trusting the national news media.
As for the antiquities, not sure what you are referencing but I am certainly interested in history as well. However, I care more about lives being taken in the present.
As for my self-righteous "rantings" not becoming me, perhaps you don't know me well enough;)
No one has questioned the Liberties gained through the shedding of American blood of generations past-they were the 'Greatest Generation' for so many reasons. Unfortunately, the US military motives in my generation have been more corporate and resource driven.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous obviously is a TEATARD and chances are only subscribes to FOX news channels. This would explain how one takes a debate on current affairs and reverts back to 1950s McCarthyism type fear tactics. In Anonymous's mind we should probably nuke Egypt...because if we don't take them out now, they'll be attacking us with W.M.D. in 10 years or so. And he probably also thinks we are a bunch of Socialist liberals for speaking our minds and thinking for ourselves...preposterous!
-Ferdinand Schorner
Thanks for "ranting" Ferdinand. I just hope Anonymous responds. Maybe we have him or her all wrong. And "teatard" is not the preferred nomenclature dude.
ReplyDelete